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Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
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TheFallenAlchemist Offline
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Post: #1
Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I've been playing these things since the days of CNC and KNP, even having made one of the worst (and forgotten games) in the community. I'd chalk it up to inexperience with the software and game design mechanics at the time.

In any case, what are some of the worst games that you've ever played in the Mega Man Fan-gaming community and why do you feel that they failed? They don't have to be recent, just anything from memory that you felt a bit lacking. Where did we go wrong, folks? How do you think we can improve?

Note: This is meant as a thread for constructive criticism and not a place to bash developer creations. Be kind.
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 05:12 AM by TheFallenAlchemist.)
09-06-2016 12:26 AM
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RE: What Are The Worst Mega Man Fan Games Ever?
While it's not necessarily bad, I admit that I hold bias against Mega Man Rock Force. I just feel that the game wastes too much time with stage gimmicks that interfere with raw game play, and some gimmicks you'll only see once and never again. I wasn't fond of the story either. In a Capcom-made Mega Man game, there'd be a reason given why the robot masters we're fighting went crazy in the first place, but that's never directly addressed in this game, nor is there any appearance of Dr. Wily aside from a mention in the intro sequence. I simply don't see how you can have a Classic Mega Man game plot line without Wily involved.

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(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 01:40 AM by gone-sovereign.)
09-06-2016 01:33 AM
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Entity1037 Offline
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RE: What Are The Worst Mega Man Fan Games Ever?
So to start off, these are all my opinions. And I'm going to be blunt.

Mega Man Unlimited


Mega Man SFR


Also


By the way, I think it would be good to change the title of the thread to something like "What have some Mega Man Fangames done wrong?" to open up the discussion to also include fangames that are relatively good but also have failings worth talking about.

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09-06-2016 02:57 AM
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TheFallenAlchemist Offline
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I agree. MMU was a mess, it tried so very hard to be difficult for difficulty's sake. I played it with CE to be honest, and that's the only way I ever enjoyed the game. Instead of realizing the faults in level design, he simply tiled over it with baby mode. It was an insult to any longtime Mega Man player.

I have not finished SFU and am stuck battling the clones of robot masters from the developer's previous games. I felt it had hits and misses.

Edit: Finished SFU, was referring to SMM3.

Eternal is a game that saw me not even completing the robot masters. It just became too much of a chore due to the high level of difficulty. If I remember one thing about the old games, they were at least balanced.

Still can't beat the claw boss in Revolution.

Metagal, even though it's not a Mega Man title, took from this and made a game that is literally on the same level as MMU in terms of difficulty, possibly worse. In no circumstance should gravity wells, falling platforms, pits and spikes all marry together to form what soon becomes a grueling test of patience. One gets to the point where they wonder if it's going to be "fun" and ends up only finding more needless frustration.

Can someone please answer a rather simple question: Why are we making these games so difficult? A little challenge is nice, but not everyone wants the experience of a Japanese ROM hack. Mega Man 2 came with two modes in the west, "Normal" and "Difficult."
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 06:02 AM by TheFallenAlchemist.)
09-06-2016 05:24 AM
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MrKyurem Offline
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I don't really agree with a lot of your points about SFR, so I'm going to explain what I do/don't agree with, and my counter-points.

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  The level design is basically a claustrophobic onslaught of enemies.

Claustrophobic? At times, I see your point. But calling it an "onslaught of enemies" really undermines the design choices it uses. It does use a fair few sections of enemy challenges, but these are all well designed, and some pretty clever - like the introduction of the Battonton in Coal Man's stage. The first Battonton is positioned so you will walk past it, but still see it opening - thus, you've learned how it works. The second Battonton is positioned so you must attack it after it has begun flying - thus, you've been tested on the knowledge you just gained. Finally, the last Battonton is positioned so you can shoot it before it opens up - allowing you to see that shots reflect from it before it flies (while still knowing it's vulnerable while flying.). And with that, the game has perfectly set your up for any future Battonton-related challenges - even if you've never played Mega Man before.

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  it's just enemy challenges that seem to have the goal of making it inconvenient to get through rather than presenting a fun challenge.

I disagree - most enemy challenges use the stage gimmicks, with one of my favourite examples being the crosshair sections in W2, to make the enemy challenges more variable and interesting.

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  Pretty much all of the stages are close-quarter combat situations with at least 2 different types of enemies at once, and there are very few sections that are more about the platforming and less about the enemies themselves or the enemies' roles in the platforming section.

That's a slight oxymoron - enemies being in platforming sections doesn't make that section less about the platforming - if anything, in most cases, it further emphasises a focus on platforming, as you usually cannot return fire, making these less like enemies and more like stage hazards. Examples that come to mind are Coal Man, Axe Man, and Wily 2.

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  Except if you get to the wily castle and you don't use upgrades, then it's the definition of a frustrating slog.

Checkpoints are fairly distributed within the Wily stages, however, to each their own.

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  And seriously, the design is so claustrophobic, name 4 places that Rush Jet is useful in SFR. Now name 4 places where Rush Jet is useful in Mega Man 4. It's probably easier to come up with ones in Mega Man 4, huh? Now name 4 places where Rush Coil is useful in SFR/Mega Man 4. I don't think I've ever used Rush Coil in SFR!

Valid complaints. Rush Coil is basically only useful in Wizard Man's stage and Wily 1, and Rush Jet would be useful in Wizard Man's stage... if Rush Jet wasn't the reward you got for beating Wizard Man's stage.

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  Most of the bosses seem to suffer from having long convoluted patters that come of as being full of superfluous challenges

Leaf Man shoots 2/3 boomerangs, jumps towards you, walks a bit, then fires two 3-way shots, one in mid air, Zap Man is mostly RNG or distance-based attacks IIRC, Soak Man shoots a bouncing bubble (unless 2 already exist), jumps, shoots 3 shots, jumps twice, shoots a cloud, rinse and repeat. Coal Man does three randomly-chosen attacks, then does his Coal Barrage, then repeats. Trash Man slides once, throws bouncing trash, then slides once/twice, then does a random special attack. Wizard Man uses RNG, with telegraphs to show his attack choice. Dagger Man is also RNG, with telegraphs to show his attack choice. Axe Man follows a set pattern - jump twice (or three times, if his HP is either a prime number or 25), then use either two axes and one projectile attack, or two projectile attacks or one axe, which alternates every time he uses it.

Sparing Axe Man, I don't consider many of these convoluted.

EDIT: Blackmore has corrected me on two of these: Zap Man (who is pattern based, but has a pattern switch at half HP), and Coal Man (who's attacks are actually based on your actions and positions, which has given me a nowfound respect for Coal Man).

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  while having these patterns be extremely set-in-stone and predictable.

Many, many official RMs use a form of pattern - for a surprising example, Quick Man is at least pseudo-pattern based. Quick Man always jumps 3 times, on the second jump throwing boomerangs at the peak of his jump, then runs forwards three times (a glitch, however, makes Quick Man often jump inside walls too quickly for the player to see, giving the illusion of Quick Man jumping twice/one).

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  This, and the fact that almost all of the bosses seem to have exactly one attack pattern ends up making the whole challenge of the bosses be just getting the hang of the convoluted pattern that you'll probably die at the first time due to there being so much going on and not enough foresight to the attacks or to what's happening. And then once you learn the pattern, it's just all about performing the pattern perfectly in this long arduous rhythm, which is just more dull and annoying than anything.

Games full of purely RNG bosses get old a lot faster than pattern-based bosses do, as you can only pull so many tricks with RNG bosses due to the lack of guarantees as to what the boss will do next (thus, meaning that your attacks must all be individually threatening rather than being able to just create pressure, or assist other attacks.). This is one of the few flaws I feel Rock Force has - all of its bosses are RNG (with limitations).

(09-06-2016 02:57 AM)Entity1037 Wrote:  Just look at bass; he's by far the worst offender of this. All of his patterns come out with little to no warning, have a lot to them, and are completely repeated step for step. He has no variation in his patterns other than maybe his position in his first and fourth phases, he has FRIGGIN FOUR PHASES which doesn't help with this (it's not necessarily a bad thing, but it exacerbates the problem), and all of the phases are pathetic after you learn the pattern! It's horrible!!!

Bass is a bad boss, but you should not be judging the whole game for one of its optional superbosses (although we all know the only real superboss is Insane Light Capsule).
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 02:28 PM by MrKyurem.)
09-06-2016 06:14 AM
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Karakato Offline
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Post: #6
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
Most of the games listed above are one of the "better" fangames. Lemme add some of the lower tier ones.

Mega Man Origins
Mega Man 42
Mega Man Rocks

Fancy a Karrot Cake?
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 06:15 AM by Karakato.)
09-06-2016 06:14 AM
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TheFallenAlchemist Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I never finished Origins either. I even posted videos of it until I had gotten to a certain point with an ice cannon as a boss. I got very close to completing it, until the game crashed completely. That was it for that.

Haven't finished 42, I always felt like it was sort of just, well... there. Reached the Wily stages.

Reached Wily stages in MMR. Door Man had an interesting concept. Definitely agree with you on Hit Man.
09-06-2016 08:33 AM
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Linzodakatz Offline
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(09-06-2016 06:14 AM)Karakato Wrote:  Most of the games listed above are one of the "better" fangames. Lemme add some of the lower tier ones.

Mega Man Origins
Mega Man 42
Mega Man Rocks


Who the hay plays a Mega Man game with WASD? That's like playing COD BO3 with tank controls


Master progammer my ***

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Well, most of the time anywho

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(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 11:32 AM by Linzodakatz.)
09-06-2016 11:31 AM
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MrKyurem Offline
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(09-06-2016 11:31 AM)Linzodakatz Wrote:  Who the hay plays a Mega Man game with WASD?

[silently and slowly raises hand]

I use WASD for movement, , for jump, . for shoot, and / for slide, along with L and ; for fast weapon switching.
09-06-2016 12:18 PM
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DoomManFTW Offline
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
As much as I like Megaman Unlimited, I can agree with how there are too many insta-death challenges, while also having pretty long stages with just one check point in the middle without counting the one you get right until fighting a boss. Some parts are really confusing and most of the time you are just going to use Rush to get through.

For Megaman SFR, I hardly see anything wrong with it really. The only complaint I could possibly have is the fact that a lot of the bosses have a set pattern, like the robot master does Attack1 once, then jumps and after that he does Attack2 twice etc., and also the fact that the same sprite for the spikes is used way too often and sometimes it does not even look right.
09-06-2016 01:00 PM
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(09-06-2016 01:00 PM)DoomManFTW Wrote:  As much as I like Megaman Unlimited, I can agree with how there are too many insta-death challenges, while also having pretty long stages with just one check point in the middle without counting the one you get right until fighting a boss. Some parts are really confusing and most of the time you are just going to use Rush to get through.

]

Yup

Especially Rainbow Man's stage

**** him and his stupid insta death QuickMan lazers

(09-06-2016 12:18 PM)MrKyurem Wrote:  [quote='Linzodakatz' pid='24331' dateline='1465471903']Who the hay plays a Mega Man game with WASD?

[silently and slowly raises hand]

I use WASD for movement, , for jump, . for shoot, and / for slide, along with L and ; for fast weapon switching.

Well I guess some people can get use to that....

Me, not so much

Licensed Game=Cash In

Well, most of the time anywho

-Linzo
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 01:17 PM by Linzodakatz.)
09-06-2016 01:13 PM
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Big Fish Offline
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I used the WASD keys too, although I use Spacebar to jump, J to shoot and Q and E to quickswitch.

As for the fan-games, I really don't like Unlimited but I think all the problems are already said by everyone else. The checkpoints are really far apart from where they should be in the game.
09-06-2016 03:30 PM
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I use wasd to move, up ARROW to jump, left ARROW to shoot, right arrow to quick slide if applicable, down arrow for any fourth button like a weapon button, q and e to switch weapons, space for pause, and left shift for select if applicable. This control scheme just feels really natural to me.

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(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 03:45 PM by Entity1037.)
09-06-2016 03:44 PM
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
Say,how about Perfect Harmony?

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Well, most of the time anywho

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09-06-2016 03:56 PM
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I'm seeing conversation above about Mega Man: Super Fighting Robot, so I suppose I'll chip in: Mega Man: SFR really wasn't a fan game that stood out to me as memorable. It was trying to take after the Ruby-Spears cartoon, which is plain to see, but it just ended up feeling like a reinterpretation of Mega Man 5, with different robot masters, weapons, and stages. Beyond that, it doesn't do enough to stand out on its own; the graphics were nice but the stages themselves were pretty forgettable, and some of the robot master designs didn't look that great either. Coal Man, for instance, was a good idea in concept, but he looks like a glorified washing machine. I won't go so far as to call it bad, I just don't tend to think too much of it.

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(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 07:46 PM by gone-sovereign.)
09-06-2016 07:26 PM
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(09-06-2016 07:26 PM)gone-sovereign Wrote:  It was trying to take after the Ruby-Spears cartoon, which is plain to see

It didn't try to take after the Ruby-Spears cartoon even remotely (apart from the name), as far as I know. The name was chosen as they could not think of a better name, and it worked well enough.
(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 07:55 PM by MrKyurem.)
09-06-2016 07:48 PM
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(09-06-2016 07:48 PM)MrKyurem Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 07:26 PM)gone-sovereign Wrote:  It was trying to take after the Ruby-Spears cartoon, which is plain to see

It didn't try to take after the Ruby-Spears cartoon even remotely (apart from the name), as far as I know. The name was chosen as they could not think of a better name, and it worked well enough.

I mean in the sense of the plot, Proto Man siding with Wily. I'm sorry, I should have elaborated better.

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09-06-2016 08:04 PM
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MrKyurem Offline
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(09-06-2016 08:04 PM)gone-sovereign Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 07:48 PM)MrKyurem Wrote:  
(09-06-2016 07:26 PM)gone-sovereign Wrote:  It was trying to take after the Ruby-Spears cartoon, which is plain to see

It didn't try to take after the Ruby-Spears cartoon even remotely (apart from the name), as far as I know. The name was chosen as they could not think of a better name, and it worked well enough.

I mean in the sense of the plot, Proto Man siding with Wily. I'm sorry, I should have elaborated better.

Eh, not particularly. Proto Man is being mind-washed by Wily in SFR, while in the cartoon, Proto Man chooses to out of free will.
09-06-2016 08:13 PM
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(09-06-2016 03:56 PM)Linzodakatz Wrote:  Say,how about Perfect Harmony?

As far as Perfect Harmony is concerned, it suffers from a lot of the same faults that TDK did:

- Weak boss patterns
- Lack of weapons
- Lack of overall polish
- Overpowered superbosses

Everyone said that it wanted to be it's own IP and it did become that. It's hard for me to say that TDK was completely terrible, because I don't think it was. It just needed some major work and polish in order to have been a really interesting title.


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(This post was last modified: 09-06-2016 09:27 PM by TheFallenAlchemist.)
09-06-2016 08:54 PM
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RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
Yes, I'm aware that constructive criticism is the name of the game here, but allow me to say this.

Mega Man Z is the worst thing in the history of anything ever. Now, I'm going to go in-depth as to why because I have nothing better to do with my time.

WARNING: This is really long. It's pretty much a Let's Play of this monstrosity. (Click to View)

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09-06-2016 09:52 PM
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