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Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
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Kallisto Offline
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Post: #141
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I wanted to discuss a issue when it comes to critics because sometimes I feel some have crossed over the line when criticism becomes skill bias. I've been seeing that a lot of recently in regards to more recent fan games, and I find this to be very problematic.

When does criticizing "game design" turn into "I can't play this game because I'm not skilled enough, and I want this removed?". Never mind Fan Games when it comes to that, but this happens to all games in general, and makes me cringe when I see certain comments that are absurd, and some even mocking or bringing down the developer (how is that even helpful)?

My other problem is when a fan game has to be 1:1 to a official Mega Man game OR ELSE the community will tear them a new one. That is not a good message to send to a fan game developer as that would stifle any ideas he may have in mind that is out of the norm, MM7 & 8 were practically out of the box when they came out, and I wish we could see more of that instead of forcing "everything should be this way, and no other way or else I'll give you a bad review". I hope the fan game community is not being too overly reliant on the tried, and true method as to me that would be pretty boring in the end, I appreciate SFR, Unlimited, and Rock Force for what they are, but I always felt there is too much holding back.

Infamous Intent seemed like it was finally going to break it, but that project never made it, but I hope that MAGmml2 will offer something different as well (so far I've read good things about it).
(This post was last modified: 22-03-2017 04:36 AM by Kallisto.)
22-03-2017 04:16 AM
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MrKyurem Offline
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Post: #142
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(22-03-2017 04:16 AM)Kallisto Wrote:  I hope the fan game community is not being too overly reliant on the tried, and true method as to me that would be pretty boring in the end, I appreciate SFR, Unlimited, and Rock Force for what they are, but I always felt there is too much holding back.

-Rock Force
-Too much holding back

-9 unique playable characters
-A plot that has nothing to do with Wily
-A plot that applies extra angst and seriousness
-Robot Master bosses everywhere you look
-RM aesthetic designs that do not fit nicely into classic MM's design philosophies whatsoever
-Unique stage locations that haven't been done before in any MM game
-The Fusion Masters as a whole
-The Puzzle Masters
-A decent amount of stages that have a large non-combat emphasis (most notably, the previous point's stages)
-Death Man's stage
-All those difficulty/gameplay options
-A fortress that's only 3 stages
-All of this and the game isn't even finished yet

what

You cannot claim that Mega Man 7 and 8 are going outside of the box (when their only notable differences are RMs being split into two halves [which is done in rock force], a mid-stage, and a new graphical style) and then claim that Mega Man Rock Force is not ambitious enough - RF is way more ambitious and creative than 7 and 8 could ever dream to be.

I also completely fail to see how IfI was going outside of the boundries. Ignoring the graphical style (which, considering what you're saying is/isn't going outside of the box, seems to be your main criteria), all IfI does that is new is having multiple optional bosses, a new, non-Wily plotline and having 9 playable characters. (And no, the overworld doesn't count, that's just a glorified stage select)

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22-03-2017 02:27 PM
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barberbarberjoe Offline
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Post: #143
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure that Christmas Carol goes outside of the box a bit.
22-03-2017 09:43 PM
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Kallisto Offline
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Post: #144
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
What you listed about Rock Force isn't the issue, I was referring to how Megaman is handled as being a 1:1 copy of previous games without adding anything unique to his character besides just the usual 8 weapons, and Rush upgrades.

Megaman 7 yes was more of a graphical upgrade, but offered a more involved storyline which would be similar to Rock Force on how much storyline there was, I always felt the classic Megaman always lacked it. There was also the case of the power armor he obtained in MM6, and which is seen again in MM7, I never seen something like this again after the fact.

Megaman 8 I was referring to how much they offered to change up Megaman's Buster, and other upgrades that was completely new, and something like that was never seen again besides just his regular charge shot.

Also Infamous Intent's glorified stage select it may have been, but it was something different to break the mold, I appreciate little things like that to break things up a bit.

The little things may not matter much to some, but it adds up overall.
(This post was last modified: 23-03-2017 12:27 AM by Kallisto.)
23-03-2017 12:08 AM
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Karakato Offline
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Post: #145
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(23-03-2017 12:08 AM)Kallisto Wrote:  What you listed about Rock Force isn't the issue, I was referring to how Megaman is handled as being a 1:1 copy of previous games without adding anything unique to his character besides just the usual 8 weapons, and Rush upgrades.

...

Also Infamous Intent's glorified stage select it may have been, but it was something different to break the mold, I appreciate little things like that to break things up a bit.

The little things may not matter much to some, but it adds up overall.

I still fail to see how you think rock force is a "1:1 copy of the previous games" aside from aesthetic, while go on to praise ifi for breaking the mold when what it really added was just a glorified stage select, something rock force runs circles around. What you said about mm7 and 8 didn't break the mold for the classic formula gameplay wise, it only added more features to it that previous games built upon. And what mrkyurem mentioned about what rf does to the formula is more substantial than "a more involved story" or "buster upgrades".

I may not fully agree but I can respect your criticism of games that stray to the tried and true formula, but bringing up Rock Force as a prime example hurts your case.

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(This post was last modified: 23-03-2017 01:41 AM by Karakato.)
23-03-2017 01:34 AM
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Kallisto Offline
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Post: #146
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
You're correct, Rock Force was a bad example. What I'm looking for in a fan game is not so much what Robot Masters, Master Weapons, and stages can do, but what can Megaman HIMSELF do, and should Megaman fan games try to have a bit more story than the official games with the exception of 7 & 8 (story is the lesser issue to me).

I'm talking about giving megaman jump upgrades, buster upgrades, wall kicks, and other stuff to mix things up a bit, changing Megaman cosmetically would be just a bonus to me (IFI as a example). Also little things like changing the structure of the classic stage select (which Revolution did), boss introductions, and other small things would give a fan game a bit more of a identity. Now there is fan games out there that do change the Power Shot or Charge Shot, but it was mostly as a extra, and not as a main feature to be anything meaningful. Also I always thought if Megaman can pull off all things he did in MM8 then surely Megaman is not as basic as we think he was in previous games (with a few exceptions).

The little things to me matter more than the big things.
(This post was last modified: 23-03-2017 01:58 AM by Kallisto.)
23-03-2017 01:41 AM
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Karakato Offline
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Post: #147
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
Thats where the X series, Zero series, Battle network come into play. The classic mega man was never about involved storylines or crazy platforming abilities(wall kick for classic mega man, seriously?). At its core, the classic series is about minimalistic run and gun action centered around a varied set of stages and bosses that can be played in any order. I mean its good to do something different but sometimes less is more. Im all for a classic game that aims to do something differwnt, but if it neglects to keep in mind what made the originals great in the first place, then the game as a whole falters.

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23-03-2017 02:07 AM
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Kallisto Offline
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Post: #148
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
While I can understand that, and I like the official games for the intended purposes it laid out, but this is fan games, and I feel it shouldn't have to apply to the same set of rules over, and over again. If someone wanted to get away from it, and have Megaman also wall kick or other abilities then go for it, strive to be different. Give the player they have not seen before, I really want to see risks being taken more often instead of being afraid of doing something because it wouldn't be "megaman". The game will still be megaman, but just added things never been implemented before in the classic series.

In fact even in the official games they tried to introduce new things with each installment, and that is something that should be kept in mind. We don't know what Inafune, and his team could have done if they kept making more Megaman games, he could had eventually gave megaman more abilities at some point like he did in MM8 before they reverted back to his basics in MM9 & 10 to balance him out with Proto Man & Bass.

That is all I was trying to get at, the fan game community has done a wonderful job on stages, bosses, Robot Master Weapons, Enemies, but the main characters are really lacking in my view.

Also I agree with the Less is more, I'm not asking for everything under the sun inside one fan game, but just have something implemented to make you different from everyone else.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Video game developers wouldn't be where they are nowadays if they didn't take risks, and sadly there is not much of that now. That is something I always appreciated about CAPCOM & SE when they took risks with Resident Evil & Final Fantasy, I just wished some of the people didn't have the "everything must be the same attitude", but luckily I'm glad to see RE7 didn't get that abuse from the fans.
(This post was last modified: 23-03-2017 05:07 AM by Kallisto.)
23-03-2017 04:46 AM
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Post: #149
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
(09-06-2016 01:33 AM)gone-sovereign Wrote:  While it's not necessarily bad, I admit that I hold bias against Mega Man Rock Force. I just feel that the game wastes too much time with stage gimmicks that interfere with raw game play, and some gimmicks you'll only see once and never again. I wasn't fond of the story either. In a Capcom-made Mega Man game, there'd be a reason given why the robot masters we're fighting went crazy in the first place, but that's never directly addressed in this game, nor is there any appearance of Dr. Wily aside from a mention in the intro sequence. I simply don't see how you can have a Classic Mega Man game plot line without Wily involved.

Well, Rockman and Forte: Challenger From The Future didn't even mention Wily from what I saw.

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25-03-2017 10:24 PM
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Flashman85 Offline
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Post: #150
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
I'll interject with a problem I don't think we've touched on yet: not communicating the controls to the player. For example, I recently tried out Metal Man, which gives you an option on the title screen to read what the controls are...except the game fails to tell you that you can SHOOT.

If the player doesn't know how to interact with your game, the player cannot play. Default controls should be pretty standard—arrow keys or WASD to move; Enter/Return or Spacebar to confirm; Esc or Backspace to cancel or exit. Even if you include an instruction manual with the default controls listed, there should be an obvious in-game method of checking or customizing the controls. The player shouldn't have to peck at random letters and numbers to get the game to react. Off the top of my head, I seem to recall that Mega Man in Mega City and Mega Man Rocks!, respectively, hide their not-entirely-conventional controls on an unlabeled F1 menu and in a readme no one will read.

There's also the issue of not conveying what abilities the hero has, even if the controls are known. Hard Hat 2 doesn't tell you that you can hold Down to hide under your helmet; Yust Man Adventures doesn't tell you that you can jump on enemies to destroy them. A lot of the time, these are minor things, or things that the player will probably discover through normal gameplay, but players can easily miss out on the full experience (and may even get frustrated or stuck) if they aren't shown or told everything they can do.

No matter where you go, there you are.
17-05-2017 06:24 PM
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RedBlueGray Offline
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Post: #151
RE: Oh, No! Where Did We Go Wrong? (In Regards To Mega Man Fan Games)
Okay, Megaman Eternal is the worst megaman game I have ever played..though granted that's not saying too much as I've only played the 8-bit games, the GB games, Rock Force, Christmas Carol, MaGMML.


Polar Man for example has enemies that can't do anything but jump in place...except for the one that doesn't. Also, spikedrops with scrolling screens. Complete with an easily missable powerup near the end and a checkpoint BEFORE the midboss.

Scorch Man's level starts you right in a Met's line of fire, giving you less than a second to dodge as son as the level even begins. Then, later in the level, you're introduced to platforms that fall. Right over a lava pit
20-09-2017 07:27 PM
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