Post Reply 
Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
Author Message
Entity1037 Offline
That One Person Who Does Things
*****
Registered

Posts: 430
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 5

Post: #21
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
If we're going with this thread being about the common missteps of fangames, and less literally, then alright. The title gave off the wrong idea though.

I have a theory on why people like to use the same few kinds of things like Sniper Joes and Quick Lasers and Spikes and stuff. I think the main thing is because the people who are making the fangames are making it for fun, not necessarily to make something that the players themselves will find fun. I personally find making something carefully for others to enjoy to be fun, but let me tell you HOO BOY do I know exactly what's going through the minds of some awful fangame creators. Let me tell you a story.

Once upon a time I was making a Link to the Past rom hack. It was the typical, run-of-the-mill Zelda 3 but harder kind of hack I called "Expert Quest". When I made it I was just doing what sounded fun and exciting, and what sounded fun and exciting was finding ways to make things as involved and left-field as possible for any potential player. Changing the first castle dungeon to be completely linear, making you have to actually run through all of the corridors, and swapping the enemies for only harder variants? Check. Replacing the fire rod with Bombos and putting the mushroom inside a chest in the pyramid right before Ganon so you have to do the ice palace with the most expensive magic possible? Check. Randomly hiding dungeon keys in absurd places outside of the dungeon like in people's houses, and having them inside of pots that were inside of level geometry so that you had to think to pull on some random wall or table to reveal it? Check. Making rooms that SURPRISE have like 8 enemies and a line of Beamos and lock the door behind you when you enter? Check. Adding spikes in safe spots in bosses so you have to awkwardly dodge in small spaces? Check. Adding MORE pits in the Moldorm boss arena along with fire shooters? Check. Glitching out the room of the 4th dark world dungeon boss so the boss would instead decide to literally fly everywhere, including going out of bounds and wrapping back around to the other sides of the screen, becoming an absolute MAD MAN?!?! Checkity check.

You see, Quick Lasers, Spikes, Yoku Blocks, and Sniper Joes all present an immediate challenge and / or present an immediate, clear consequence for failure which makes it fun to make as obstacles if you're just doing whatever sounds like it would make the most opposition for the player. Because when people first start making levels when they have no real idea of what to do (or at least in my case), they just make stuff that would interrupt the player's path because that's what levels do, and what sounds interesting and fun to make in a level then isn't necessarily what sounds interesting and fun to do as a player, but what would sound interesting and fun to have come at the player at the time. It's a case of a lack of care for what the player would really think, and only seeing things from an outside perspective. At least that's one possible explanation I have.

Also if you feel like torturing yourself, PM me and I'll totally send you that hack. It's unfinished and glitchy though, so be warned.

Programming a thing, ba da baa, programming a thing, ba da baa...
05-01-2017 10:02 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
PseuDeadpool Offline
Neon Tigger
***
Registered

Posts: 92
Joined: Jun 2016
Reputation: 1

Post: #22
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
Well said, Entity.

Overall, I think there have been some very valuable contributions in this thread. Personally, I'm more of a conceptual game designer (I cannot program for squat), so I enjoy discussing the "design" part of game design. I like hearing what people like and dislike about Megaman, and how things can potentially be done better. I'll be keeping in mind a lot of what has been said here when designing my own level for MaGMML2.

Back on track:
When something is repeatedly done poorly, it can be easy to say that it just shouldn't be utilised. However, I think that almost any concept can be executed well with enough forethought, good execution, and play testing. I think the main thing people may or may not realize is that a lot of the most despised aspects of Megaman are ones that are typically done without a lot of thought and planning. Designing a game requires a lot of thought. When I create ideas and stages, I take into account a lot of different factors that will affect how fun the idea is and, most importantly, how the player will react; that is the most important thing to keep in mind when creating a successful fan game or even a single stage. It's OK if you don't like a certain trope, but if someone comes along, and does it well, then that is worthy of merit. In fact, if a certain concept is despised, a fan game creator may be more successful in spite of it - because they are aware of past mistakes and are likely to think and plan more thoroughly. Ultimately, you don't have to be a veteran game designer or expert to create a successful game idea - you simply have to plan, think ahead, and be willing to respond to feedback and criticism. No matter what, game design takes effort and planning - THAT is what will make a game successful or not.

Finally, just a few more of my thoughts - for your consideration:
- Entity, you mentioned the Lost Woods maze from Ocarina of time as an example of "dead space/repetition." I don't think the others here were thinking of that type of challenge when this point was brought up. Maze challenges usually provide some sort of mental stimulation because they require the player to find the correct pathway, which, while somewhat repetitive, qualifies as a puzzle. And you're right: If done correctly, these challenges can be fun. However, if you simply put room after room of the same thing in a stage, with no twists or interesting puzzles to solve, the player will quickly become bored. I think that is the problem being addressed here.
- I think the only things I would "ban" are underutilized gimmicks, intentional lack of checkpoints, and forced weapon usage. Although, this is because all of these are simply bad game design. I believe that after any sort of major challenge which could likely result in instant death, put a checkpoint. It think it's better to have one too many checkpoints than too few; otherwise, he player may have to repeat a single difficult section repeatedly, which becomes tedious. Basically, put enough checkpoints that players should be comfortable and never too frustrated with your level (to the point of rage quitting), while still allowing the level to challenge the player. Likewise, forcing a player to use a particular weapon can become tedious - and even if you give them constant item drops, the player may be bored or annoyed. Frankly, it's lazy. If you want to encourage a player to use a weapon, find a creative, fun, and maybe even subtle way to do it. Otherwise, make it an alternate path, or don't do it at all. Lastly, gimmicks should be creative and interesting enough to stimulate and challenge the player. Using gimmicks in new, challenging ways are what Megaman games are made of. Having a random, one-time gimmick which really just serves to fill space is, again, lazy. If you have to try cramming in an extra gimmick, perhaps your stage already has enough Wink. Try using the ones you already have before you add more.

Well those are my thoughts. Sorry for the length, I just wanted to throw my hat in the ring for the first time in a while. I hope we can all learn something from each other. Have a lovely evening everyone, I wish you all good luck in the new year.

Why is everyone so dead serious? *Sigh* I've been dead lifting a lot of dead weight all my life. Anyway, don't mind me - I probably won't do anything too grave. MM - Coolface Also, (0)_(0) I see dead people...
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2017 01:03 AM by PseuDeadpool.)
06-01-2017 01:01 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Kallisto Offline
Postman
****
Registered

Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 2016
Reputation: 5

Post: #23
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
I know in the later games like MM6 that weapon usage allowed alternative pathways, I definitely would love to see that more often, and there should be a incentive like a hidden weapon/upgrade/boss/etc.
(This post was last modified: 06-01-2017 03:09 AM by Kallisto.)
06-01-2017 03:09 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Blackhook Offline
Gonna get promoted...eventually
**
SIBRE Alpha Testers

Posts: 346
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 9
Smash AwardRevo Remix ContributorSIBRE Contributor
Post: #24
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
Capcom

[Image: d82bcef28Chwb.png]
06-01-2017 06:24 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Garirry Offline
gg no re
****
MaGMML Judge

Posts: 177
Joined: Apr 2016
Reputation: 6

Post: #25
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
If I'll be honest, the only thing we should ban from Mega Man games is bad level design... as vague as that sounds. Yoku blocks and quick lasers aren't inherently bad. Just look at Entity's levels in Endless - they all use things that are typically hated yet the levels are very well done. You can have quick lasers if they're done well and you can have yoku blocks if they're done well. On the other hand, there are plenty of very standard stuff that can be ruined by bad level design. Isn't City War (in MaGMML) an obvious example at how something as basic as platforms were fucked up? And there were other levels that were pretty shit with level design on the basic level.

It's not about the elements in my opinion, it's how well is the stage done. If you aren't that good of a level designer, definitely stay away from complex obstacles like these, if you are a good level designer, you might be capable of using them, and if you are a bad level designer, then don't even make levels in the first place.
06-01-2017 06:57 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Kallisto Offline
Postman
****
Registered

Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 2016
Reputation: 5

Post: #26
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
This is gonna sound odd, but the bad levels were kind of funny, and a break from the norm. for me. lol
06-01-2017 02:46 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Flashman85 Offline
Minor Internet Celebrity
****
Registered

Posts: 184
Joined: Jan 2016
Reputation: 14
Spike Award
Post: #27
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
(06-01-2017 06:57 AM)Garirry Wrote:  If you aren't that good of a level designer, definitely stay away from complex obstacles like these, if you are a good level designer, you might be capable of using them, and if you are a bad level designer, then don't even make levels in the first place.

At the risk of detouring a little off topic, I'm not sure most people are able to gauge whether they're good or bad at level design until other people tell them. Even then, "level design" is as broad a topic as, say, "art." Just as you can be an amazing sculptor who's rubbish at origami, you can be a level designer who excels at death laser implementation but stinks at enemy placement.

Another thing to consider is that the majority of developers probably have never made a Mega Man fangame before, and developers rarely do their best work on a first attempt. Take my contribution to MaGMML1, for instance. The real problems with "Maze of Death" aren't things that would've been fixed by banning any complex elements I mishandled; they're a combination of deadline pressure, lack of playtesting, lack of restraint because WHEEEE! I'M MAKING A MEGA MAN GAME!, and targeting myself as the audience instead of the general public. I've learned a great deal from other people's reactions to my level, and I'm taking the feedback to heart as I work on OH JOES! and my MaGMML2 submission.

I won't get better as a level developer if you take away my enemy spawner and underwater mine privileges; I'll just find other hazards to annoy you. And I certainly won't get better if I stay away from design completely. It's important to identify what parts of a level don't work, but it's more important to identify what could be done to MAKE them work. Heck, the whole reason I'm making OH JOES! is to demonstrate that there are plenty of ways to breathe new life into an enemy type that's overstayed its welcome. Giving up entirely on people and obstacles leaves us with fewer development perspectives and less diverse gameplay, and the fan community is poorer for it. I say we take a positive spin and try to fix what's broken before we jump to throwing it out.

No matter where you go, there you are.
06-01-2017 08:16 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
kanna Offline
Newbie
*
Registered

Posts: 5
Joined: Jan 2016
Reputation: 0

Post: #28
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
Can I say using Zero as a boss?
14-01-2017 04:07 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
gone-sovereign Offline
WORLD WAR W: Experience it in IMAX 3D!
**
Registered

Posts: 29
Joined: May 2016
Reputation: 0

Post: #29
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
I'm a proponent of edginess in Mega Man games. I love it when a Mega Man fangame blurs the lines between robots and humans, and has Mega Man feeling guilty for his own actions. There are so many ways you could go with this, and it's a refreshing detour from the relatively light-hearted themes of the original games. Even though it's not a fangame, I'd like to use as an example how the Mega Man-inspired rock band The Megas dealt with the story line of Mega Man 3 in History Repeating -- Dr. Light feels so deeply betrayed by Dr. Wily that he would now rather see him dead, and tasks Mega Man without outright destroying Wily, despite Mega Man's protests. Mega Man, feeling utterly ignored by Dr. Light, starts to lose sight of the doctor's vision and begins to only see himself as "just another machine". Finally, at the end of the album, Mega Man realizes that his free will makes him more than a robot, and he lets Wily live.

This brings me to my next point: If you're going to have a deep plotline in a Mega Man fangame, it needs to be done correctly. A good deal of focus needs to be placed on the characters themselves. What made the aforementioned album so great is that every character is developed through the songs themselves, and the lyrics provide more context to their character than the original Mega Man games ever did. Indeed, there are some fangames that have established and developed their characters beautifully -- Unlimited and Revenge of the Fallen are the first two that come to mind. Other games are quirky about this. Super Fighting Robot's dialogue was awkward in spots, and Rock Force didn't do enough to establish Mega Man himself (at least that's how I felt). You need to do more with a character than tell us what they're saying, you have to delve into what they're thinking, and do so in such a way that you can take away things about the character the game itself doesn't tell you.

I do agree, though, that making connections between the Classic series and the X series is something can be done without. Not because it's bad, but it's overdone. The canon games do a well enough job to explain the connection between the two series, and that's all you need. But there have been way too many fangames that just throw you into a boss battle with Zero for no good reason. I loved the ending of Pyro's Make A Good Mega Man Level contest because it was the perfect jab at games that do that. On that note, I'd also like to call out fangames that use callbacks to canon games (the ones where the fangame as a whole is supposed to have new weapons, robot masters, you get the idea) -- I've seen this done a lot. Referencing another Mega Man game is okay in samples, but an entire level shouldn't revolve around using old ideas. At the very least, you need to add some novelty value. Your fangame needs to be able to stand alone, and if you're using callbacks that by and large don't add anything to the game, that tells me two things: You're either out of ideas, or you feel so insecure about your fangame that you feel like you need the official games to fall back on. Shoehorning old assets into a new game don't add any novelty value. Better to just do away with them entirely.

Lastly, I have to second MrKyurem's suggestion of gimmick underuse. That was one of the problems I had with Mega Man Rock Force -- a lot of gimmicks in the second half of the game were used once in a stage and then were never seen again.

Meet the Waltrip Bros. Tag Team Duo of Death. Michael Waltrip kills the field, Darrell Waltrip butchers the commentary.
WORLD WAR W: Experience it in IMAX 3D!
----------------------------------------------------------
DeviantArt
Tumblr
(This post was last modified: 15-01-2017 03:08 AM by gone-sovereign.)
14-01-2017 06:55 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Kallisto Offline
Postman
****
Registered

Posts: 114
Joined: Oct 2016
Reputation: 5

Post: #30
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
I admit I still want another game with Zero, but for the reason that I want to see a Developer do it right since so many failed so far. As much as I liked MMU..I felt it needed "something" to complement that fan game with another one to give full circle for Zero's story, the construction phase of Zero's life is a interesting take, but there is a issue for me:

The reason being that we know officially that Zero was being violent, and disobedient at some point, and had to be put away by Wily, but we never see that.

That is the part I believe a fan game maker should keep focus on, but I pray they don't go overboard like so many did.
(This post was last modified: 14-01-2017 10:11 PM by Kallisto.)
14-01-2017 10:08 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Flashman85 Offline
Minor Internet Celebrity
****
Registered

Posts: 184
Joined: Jan 2016
Reputation: 14
Spike Award
Post: #31
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
(14-01-2017 06:55 PM)gone-sovereign Wrote:  Shoehorning old assets into a new game don't add any novelty value. Better to just do away with them entirely.

As someone who agrees that gimmicks shouldn't be abandoned before they've been used to their full potential, I'm surprised you feel this way. There are plenty of old assets that were used on one or two screens and then forgotten forever; should they really be off-limits on the sole basis that they already appeared in a game, however briefly?

Speaking as someone who's currently developing a MaGMML2 level and a complete fangame that both rely almost entirely on old assets, I can tell you I'm neither out of ideas or insecure. I've got plenty of ideas about how to use these old assets in novel ways, and I freely admit that I don't have the artistic talent, programming skill, or desire to create new assets from scratch.

I agree that fangames should avoid duplicating challenges we've already faced in other games. But I wouldn't hold it against a fangame creator if they wanted to reuse old assets in an otherwise novel game, as long as it's done creatively.

No matter where you go, there you are.
17-01-2017 06:45 PM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Hilman170499 Offline
Blue Helmet Dude
*
Registered

Posts: 5
Joined: Sep 2016
Reputation: 0

Post: #32
Think of the story, dudes.
Actually, I personally have something I want to put out here.

Games that are too "pro-gameplay".
Okay, I know what you're going to say, and I understand. Gameplay is a cardinal priority in making a game. You gotta optimise it to make it a fun experience all the way. That being said, what I mean by "too pro-gameplay" is that the game focuses so much on gameplay, that it completely shirks on the story aspect of the game. Let's face it, like it or not, there are some people who simply enjoy the story in video games. In fact, it's part of the fun in playing video games for this group. Like I said, optimal gameplay is good, more-so important, but plot should be taken into consideration. It doesn't have to be too serious, either. A light-hearted comical plot will suffice, as long as the writing is good.
Basically, emphasis on gameplay is okay, but it shouldn't come at the expense of story writing.

Sorry if I worded something wrongly or or mis-interpreted something. This is just my opinion.
(This post was last modified: 23-01-2017 02:49 AM by Hilman170499.)
23-01-2017 02:48 AM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
notencore Offline
Regular
**
Registered

Posts: 28
Joined: Dec 2016
Reputation: 4

Post: #33
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
Story.

MM2 had like 5 seconds of story.
so did MM3.

gtfo with these long intros that require reading, i just want to play jump and shoot man
26-01-2017 07:19 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TheFallenAlchemist Offline
Dr. Wily's Bastard Child
*****
Registered

Posts: 320
Joined: Jun 2016
Reputation: 0

Post: #34
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
(26-01-2017 07:19 PM)notencore Wrote:  Story.

MM2 had like 5 seconds of story.
so did MM3.

gtfo with these long intros that require reading, i just want to play jump and shoot man

What? No way. You're trolling, man. Tongue

I think it was already mentioned, but I'd like to see less expert style challenges, particularly of a Rom-hack flavor. I've seen the Rom-hacks before, some of that stuff is beyond me as a Mega Man player and I'd definitely consider myself a veteran in that regard. Games should always focus on the normal audience first, but I have no problem with modes of difficulty to add challenges to those who want them. I always think of it like this: "Fun, not frustrating." If you've made a tough section, don't add intentionally placed enemies to make it even more of a hassle. I have seen that too many times, in both the fan and doujin Mega Man titles. It seems that many developers often like to add insult to injury.

Also, and this might be a bit controversial: If you're going to use a classic stage or boss, please make it fresh. Unless you are making a remake, I shouldn't be thrilled to play Guts Man's stage again with nothing new. I wouldn't call that nostalgia, I'd call it filler at that point.

Also, work on your spriting. Quick Man with a palette swap and a Top Hat does not become "Dapper Man." I see a lot of this, especially in the yoyo games junkyard, which is thankfully no more. (Oh, did I say that out loud?)

Yeah, I review stuff: http://thegrimtower.blogspot.com
(This post was last modified: 10-02-2017 10:54 AM by TheFallenAlchemist.)
10-02-2017 10:51 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Thojoewhit Offline
Regular Joe
****
Registered

Posts: 170
Joined: Feb 2016
Reputation: 2

Post: #35
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
I have a few things.

1. If you are gonna use Blyka's SkullMan Example, don't just swap skullman with megaman and call it a day. Improve the example and turn it into a good engine! Fix the physics! add object parents! ADD MORE STUFF AND FIX ANY PROBLEMS!

2. Avoid palette swap RM. They look weird most of the time. Unless it's about wily rebuilding them with new powers, or it's a joke game, just use original sprites.

3. If you're gonna add more playable characters, make sure they play differently. No one wants to play a sprite swap of megaman.

I'm blue dabodedabodi
I'm cyan dabodedabodi
-Megaman
(This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 10:22 PM by Thojoewhit.)
19-02-2017 11:00 PM
Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
TheFallenAlchemist Offline
Dr. Wily's Bastard Child
*****
Registered

Posts: 320
Joined: Jun 2016
Reputation: 0

Post: #36
RE: Things You Want to Ban From Mega Man Fan Games
Again, palette swaps. Fans have been making these games for almost as long as the franchise has been around. Can we please kill the palette swap robot masters now and forever? It was alright back in the old days and in the days of yoyo's junkheap, and it even still manages to exist on gamejolt - but enough is enough. I think I get more upset about palette swaps than I do any design element in this Tornado Fanging series. It's one thing that I just have to look at the screen and ask, "If not now, then when?"

However, I do not have a problem with 2.0 models, maybe upgrading some of the originals. I find it odd that aside from MM7's Guts Tank upgrade, there has never been an upgraded version of these robot masters with updated armor and weapons. I guess it would also be cool if we had a combination of Ice Man and Fire Man who could use both attacks. But that is more of a "things I want to see in fangames" thread.

Yeah, I review stuff: http://thegrimtower.blogspot.com
(This post was last modified: 20-02-2017 09:27 AM by TheFallenAlchemist.)
20-02-2017 09:26 AM
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply 


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread:
1 Guest(s)

Return to TopReturn to Content